[21:05:05] Ina Centaur: hi aaron
[21:05:16] Aaron Jung: hi hun
[21:05:26] Harman Mayo: welcome, Aaron and Minerva
[21:05:37] Ina Centaur: btw, i think this is jordanna’s first time… harman, i gather this is not your first time reading A.S?
[21:05:47] Harman Mayo: correct
[21:06:02] Ina Centaur: yes, and Minerva is a Fountainhead fan joining us… btw, it’s not too late to catch up. we will discuss Chapter 3 of A.S. tomorrow
[21:06:04] Harman Mayo: but i’m avaoiding spoilers
[21:06:33] Harman Mayo: only commenting on each chapter as it is revealed
[21:06:49] Jordana McMahon: doing a good job harman
[21:06:59] Ina Centaur: yes, quite definitely
[21:07:12] Harman Mayo: it’s kind of fun
[21:07:13] Ina Centaur: i guess we could go back to your earlier point about HR being driven by pain… that’s definitely a rare perspective
[21:07:30] Harman Mayo: treating each chapter as it’s own story
[21:07:33] Ina Centaur: (i guess the biology and general discussion aside…)
[21:08:07] Jordana McMahon: wel beng motivated by pain doesn’t mean you enjoy pain
[21:08:18] Jordana McMahon: so not nec a masochist
[21:08:34] Harman Mayo: right
[21:08:38] Ina Centaur: lol
[21:08:51] Ina Centaur: yes, i admit i was being flip earlier there
[21:08:57] Harman Mayo: in fact - many people who are successful start poor
[21:08:59] Ina Centaur: then again… what defines motivation?
[21:09:05] Ina Centaur: typically, people are motivated by a reward
[21:09:10] Ina Centaur: or… a drive to get away from something
[21:09:17] Harman Mayo: it’s the need to escape that drives their ambition to succeed
[21:09:47] Ina Centaur: so, Rearden needed to escape the pain and harsh air of the ore mines… so he workd for 16 years to own them so he could run them
[21:10:02] Harman Mayo: yes
[21:10:19] Harman Mayo: his pain drove him to focus his ambition
[21:10:53] Jordana McMahon: however at one point he says his only motor was “that it could be done”
[21:11:42] Harman Mayo: does anyone ever really understand their ownmotives?
[21:11:58] Aaron Jung: not if you are ego driven
[21:12:01] Ina Centaur: probably not understand…
[21:12:12] Ina Centaur: but rather… *being able to* identify
[21:12:14] Jordana McMahon: probably not until you are over fifty
[21:12:25] Jordana McMahon: and have figured some things out
[21:12:30] Harman Mayo: most people I’ve met aren’t introspective enough to understand what “makes them tick”
[21:12:32] Ina Centaur: earlier on, a point was brought up… that the heroes were the ones who could identify what was going on.. they always knew what to do
[21:12:34] Aaron Jung: you dont’ have to be over 50 for that
[21:12:47] Ina Centaur: and the others… they generally just stumble around blindly
[21:12:59] Jordana McMahon: well it takes some of us that long
[21:13:10] Aaron Jung: sorry to hear.
[21:13:11] Aaron Jung: lol
[21:13:28] Aaron Jung: /me smiles
[21:13:30] Minerva Ferraris: isn’t everyone ego driven to an extent?
[21:13:44] Harman Mayo: i think it’s not a funstion of age but of experience
[21:13:59] Jordana McMahon: exactly I concede
[21:14:12] Aaron Jung: being ego driven is youth,
[21:14:14] Aaron Jung: however,
[21:14:17] Ina Centaur: hi greenscreen
[21:14:19] Aaron Jung: ego never goes away,
[21:14:24] Minerva Ferraris: I mean your frame of reference is what you know. When you look at ayn rand’s work, a core theme seems to be that one person can make a difference
[21:14:27] Harman Mayo: hiyas, greenscreen
[21:14:32] Aaron Jung: you only learn how and when to drive it instead of being driven by it.
[21:14:42] GreenScreen Television: Hi all
[21:15:03] Minerva Ferraris: I guess we could define ego - I think a lot of folks look at that word
[21:15:13] GreenScreen Television: Nothing like arriving at the right time….
[21:15:13] Harman Mayo: hmm - interesting point, Aaron
[21:15:18] Aaron Jung: ego is what we think we are/should be
[21:15:46] Aaron Jung: as in ‘ i should be wealthy because i am entitled to living good’…
[21:15:56] Aaron Jung: ‘because i am special’
[21:15:57] Aaron Jung: lol
[21:16:05] Harman Mayo: I think it’s more primitive than that
[21:16:10] Aaron Jung: then you choose actions driven by that
[21:16:16] Aaron Jung: and fail, or hurt others in the process
[21:16:33] Aaron Jung: now-
[21:17:11] GreenScreen Television: Has anyone seen the Tom Snyder inter with Ayan Rand..?
[21:17:38] Harman Mayo: no - i don’t own a television
[21:17:46] Minerva Ferraris: no - actually, but I looked at that
[21:17:47] Aaron Jung: still having same ego, but not being ruled by it would be something along the lines of- ‘ i would love to be wealthy because living upscale would make me really happy- but i will not sacrifice self contentment nor others’- would be indication of power over ego.
[21:17:51] GreenScreen Television: It’s on YouTube
[21:18:01] Minerva Ferraris: which would be a funny interview (or a dull one, not sure)
[21:18:28] Harman Mayo: I’ll look it up - thanks, greenscreen
[21:18:44] GreenScreen Television: In memory of Tom Snyder, her was great.
[21:18:44] Minerva Ferraris: hmm - I look at ego
[21:18:54] Aaron Jung: cool AV green…
[21:19:06] Minerva Ferraris: I don’t necessarily see it as a negative thing
[21:19:11] Harman Mayo: that’s the Id, Minerva
[21:19:28] GreenScreen Television: Looks like I’m crashing, won’t last long sorry I didn’t make it here earlier…
[21:19:48] Aaron Jung: yeah, that would be Id
[21:19:48] Ina Centaur: np greenscreen…
[21:19:50] Ina Centaur: check out the blog
[21:19:56] Ina Centaur: http://atlasshrugged.inacentaur.com
[21:19:58] Harman Mayo: assuming we’re using the classical psychological definitions, of course
[21:20:11] Ina Centaur: … to check out the day’s summary and post comments to extend or begin discussions!
[21:20:23] Aaron Jung: ego and super ego BLOW
[21:20:28] Ina Centaur: oh whoa… freudian psychology?
[21:20:32] Minerva Ferraris: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ego
[21:20:39] Harman Mayo: lol - yep
[21:20:51] Ina Centaur: hmm i went afk for a moment and now we are totally off tangent. very well, i’ll follow the flow
[21:20:55] Harman Mayo: and this from a skinnerite
[21:20:58] Aaron Jung: whoopsie
[21:21:00] Aaron Jung: it’s me
[21:21:04] Harman Mayo: I’m gonna get disowned!
[21:21:32] Ina Centaur: lol continue..
[21:21:38] Aaron Jung: /me is off for a smoke
[21:22:50] Ina Centaur: ok, so let’s continue talking about ego and motivation and drive…
[21:22:56] Harman Mayo: it started as a discussion of Reardens motivators
[21:23:00] Ina Centaur: … the whole “virtue of selfishness”;-P
[21:23:17] Jordana McMahon: I’m getting fuzzy time to sleep I will read the rest on the blog tomorrow
[21:23:21] Minerva Ferraris: oop is that the time?
[21:23:25] Jordana McMahon: Nite all
[21:23:29] Minerva Ferraris: keep well
[21:23:34] Ina Centaur: nite jordana
[21:23:39] Harman Mayo: night, Jordana
[21:24:07] Harman Mayo: and then there were 3
[21:24:25] Ina Centaur: ok, so i guess we’ll continue with that then…
[21:24:46] Ina Centaur: 3?
[21:24:48] Ina Centaur: lol
[21:24:53] Ina Centaur: yup…
[21:25:10] Ina Centaur: not counting Ayn Rand’s 1prim ävatar”;-P
[21:25:17] Harman Mayo: lol
[21:26:24] Ina Centaur: shall we continue discussing Rearden’s motivations?
[21:26:30] Harman Mayo: basically - the point i had is that I think Reardon needs to have the constant needling from his family
[21:26:54] Harman Mayo: It’s a part of what drives him to expand his limits
[21:27:05] Aaron Jung: wow did I make everyone go away?
[21:28:12] Harman Mayo: without them, and their canstant belittling of his abilities I think he would be less apt to mold himself into the personality that his level of acchievment requires
[21:28:14] Ina Centaur: and what about the passages where…
[21:28:28] Ina Centaur: Rearden is explicitly mentioned that he’s keeping back his fury at his family’s rxn?
[21:28:50] Harman Mayo: i think he needs that fury
[21:29:03] Harman Mayo: it’s his source of strength
[21:29:45] Harman Mayo: his accomplishment was extraordinary
[21:29:54] Ina Centaur: hmm
[21:29:56] Harman Mayo: and big men need big motivators
[21:30:05] Ina Centaur: why did he dread/procrastinate from returning to his family?
[21:30:17] Ina Centaur: he took a long walk home.. and he didn’t seem to want to go home…
[21:30:24] Ina Centaur: also… he didn’t want to tell his family of his day’s major point
[21:30:38] Harman Mayo: i thonk that even though he needs whatthey do, he resents it
[21:31:01] Harman Mayo: he on some level knows that he will never gain their approval
[21:31:38] Harman Mayo: and so he procrastinates - but he does eventually “face the music”
[21:32:12] Harman Mayo: because he knew they would not see the impotance of it
[21:32:34] Harman Mayo: importance, even
[21:32:37] Nebbisk Oh: hi y’all…
[21:32:48] Nebbisk Oh: just dropped by for a quick hello… gonna turn in
[21:32:49] Harman Mayo: Nebbisk!!!
[21:32:50] Ina Centaur: hi nebb!
[21:33:11] Nebbisk Oh: /me ’s head droops slowly to keyboard…
[21:33:15] Nebbisk Oh: g’night!
[21:33:26] Ina Centaur: nite nebbo_O
[21:33:34] Nebbisk Oh: hehe “nebbo”
[21:33:39] Harman Mayo: night, Nebbisk
[21:33:45] Ina Centaur: hehe nite nebb O_o
[21:33:46] Aaron Jung: nighty night
[21:33:57] Ina Centaur: harman, that’s an interesting perspective.
[21:34:26] Ina Centaur: i think from chapter 2 alone, that’s a possibility…
[21:34:36] Ina Centaur: do you think he realizes that pain is a motive for him though?
[21:34:37] Harman Mayo: yep
[21:34:45] Harman Mayo: that’s the excercise
[21:35:13] Harman Mayo: disect chapter 2 without allowing my knowledge of later chapters to interfere
[21:35:38] Harman Mayo: it’s given me many new insights into the book to do it chapter by chapter
[21:36:35] Ina Centaur: yes. it’s fun this way. i used to do this every year with a small group of nerds in la jolla
[21:36:56] Ina Centaur: hmm but… i think there’s something you’ve missed though
[21:37:10] Ina Centaur: his family’s reaction isn’t the one that prompts him to think about work… it’s when Larkin brings up business
[21:38:04] Ina Centaur: when Larkin mentions how Rearden needs to spend more on the PR and Washington dept’s, the passages near that have Rearden acting in disbelief as to whether that’s necessary
[21:38:30] Ina Centaur: he’s saddened that the men in that lot are so crummy
[21:39:07] Ina Centaur: ack sorry. i meant to say: he realizes that it’s necessary to have “men in Washington”… but he’s never given much thought to it
[21:39:20] Ina Centaur: the necessity of having “men in Washington” precludes that there are inherently eve
[21:39:27] Ina Centaur: *evil people who’d work to his demise
[21:39:40] Ina Centaur: actually, that’s too stilted a way of saying it. i meant:
[21:40:09] Ina Centaur: there are people who would go against him… even though (from his perspective) he is just an honest although exceedingly capable industrialist
[21:41:12] Ina Centaur: quote..
[21:41:12] Harman Mayo: every successful man has his detractors - as well as an astonished mother-in-law
[21:41:46] Ina Centaur: “His exhaustion had gone while he talked about his business. He felt a sudden spurt of rebellion, a need to recapture and defiantly to reassert his own view of eixstence, that sense of it which he had held while walking home tonight and which now seemed threatened in some nameless manner.”
[21:41:59] Ina Centaur: (p 45 if you’re using the Signet edition)
[21:42:12] Ina Centaur: (the one with the bookcover on the floor mat ;-P )
[21:42:26] Harman Mayo: i’m using the word copy i typed
[21:42:39] Ina Centaur: (oh wow, you typed up atlas shrugged? o_O )
[21:42:46] Ina Centaur: ( masochist!!!! >.< )
[21:42:47] Harman Mayo: yep
[21:42:51] Ina Centaur: (why???)
[21:42:56] Harman Mayo: on both points
[21:43:11] Harman Mayo: to have it available on my pda
[21:43:23] Ina Centaur: you could have got a copy from Amazon, i guess..
[21:43:35] Harman Mayo: but that’s too easy
[21:44:04] Ina Centaur: how fast do you type, btw? o_O
[21:44:07] Harman Mayo: more fun to do it the hard way - maybe i am a bit masochistic, at that
[21:44:27] Harman Mayo: depends on the kids
[21:44:39] Harman Mayo: with them around about 50-60 wpm
[21:44:45] Harman Mayo: alone - about 80
[21:45:26] Harman Mayo: but i slepp only 3-4 hours a day - so lots of time onm my hands
[21:46:14] Ina Centaur: oh, similar stats here (sleep inc) ;-P
[21:46:42] Harman Mayo: *smiles*
[21:47:06] Ina Centaur: aaron, would you like to read Atlas Shrugged?
[21:47:17] Aaron Jung: i suck at reading
[21:47:26] Harman Mayo: I’ve tried to view the book in a new perspective - and Hank is a Hero in many ways
[21:47:34] Ina Centaur: i think you’d find the philospohy in the book interesting
[21:47:47] Ina Centaur: it’s one of my favorite books.
[21:47:52] Aaron Jung: got a copy?
[21:48:39] Aaron Jung: /me has an ultimate lack of patiene for reading
[21:48:45] Aaron Jung: *patienCe even
[21:49:22] Ina Centaur: lol
[21:50:02] Ina Centaur: well, Hank is definitely a hero…
[21:50:26] Ina Centaur: but, because of his many mis-sights — his not realizing what his family is doing to him — he’s seen of as less of a hero
[21:50:38] Ina Centaur: it’s back to the earliest idea .. that Lauren brought up before signing off to zzzz
[21:50:56] Aaron Jung: sounds like me at age 16
[21:50:57] Aaron Jung: lol
[21:50:57] Ina Centaur: ability focus — that’s the difference between heroes, and everyone else
[21:51:09] Ina Centaur: * ability to focus, rather
[22:00:06] Harman Mayo: don’t forget the ability to act - heroes need that vital ingredient as well
[22:00:27] Ina Centaur: focus ability… without focus, they’re almost as blind as everyone else
[22:00:45] Ina Centaur: Rearden doesn’t seem to have the focus.. he keeps on avoiding what’s wrong with his family
[22:00:51] Ina Centaur: he never identifies the sort of dread he feels from them
[22:00:57] Harman Mayo: and without action they’re impotent
[22:01:02] Ina Centaur: “His exhaustion had gone while he talked about his business. He felt a sudden spurt of rebellion, a need to recapture and defiantly to reassert his own view of eixstence, that sense of it which he had held while walking home tonight and which now seemed threatened in some nameless manner.”
[22:01:08] Ina Centaur: (re quoting quote ;-P )
[22:02:44] Ina Centaur: yes, a is a mind without a body is a… ghost
[22:03:29] Harman Mayo: hmm - a ghost hero - maybe casper?
[22:03:38] Aaron Jung: you got mail
[22:03:40] Aaron Jung: both of ya
[22:03:41] Aaron Jung:
[22:03:56] Aaron Jung: yw
[22:04:25] Harman Mayo: i agree that his family drains him
[22:05:10] Harman Mayo: but the drain leads to a frenzy - i find it very telling that he is energized by the world of business
[22:05:32] Ina Centaur: why is he energized?
[22:05:44] Ina Centaur: “a need to recapture and defiantly to reassert his own view of existence”
[22:06:47] Harman Mayo: that’s his call to action
[22:07:32] Harman Mayo: he’s gathering his strength - note that “His exhaustion had gone while he talked about his business.”
[22:08:44] Harman Mayo: so he feels drained by the family - and turns his attentions to his business when he wishes to be empowered
[22:09:39] Harman Mayo: so i still think he’s successful because of his family rather than in spite of it
[22:10:03] Harman Mayo: he knows he’s a failure at home
[22:10:12] Harman Mayo: and overcompensates at work
[22:12:15] Ina Centaur: yes, that’s true
[22:13:10] Ina Centaur: he’s channeling his family’s leech-like reaction to his work… in a way to avoid having to analyze its source
[22:13:19] Harman Mayo: yes
[22:13:39] Ina Centaur: it’s part of the chain
[22:13:45] Ina Centaur: a vicious sort of cycle…
[22:14:04] Ina Centaur: his family enchains him with this nameless pull that drives him crazy.. but he channels that to his work
[22:14:36] Ina Centaur: where he basically goes into workaholic mode to avoid having to think about this chain his family forms — and why
[22:16:22] Ina Centaur: but, to argue that he’s successful because of his family… well, i guess we’d find later on that even with his family gone, he still maintains “success”
[22:16:51] Ina Centaur: interesting POV for the chapter. but i guess we’ll conclude the discussion for the night here and continue tomorrow