[19:51:43] Ina Centaur: The Chain… Rearden creates his first batch of Rearden Metal, then goes home to his (insolent) family.
[19:52:08] Ina Centaur: the chain is expressed physically as — the chain he gives to his wife
[19:52:17] Ina Centaur: metaphorically… the chain that binds them all together
[19:52:49] Ina Centaur: hi jordana!
[19:53:10] Jordana McMahon: hi everyone
[19:53:28] Ravenleigha Jewell: ho
[19:53:32] Ravenleigha Jewell: hi
[19:53:34] Quanta Torok: Hello
[19:55:32] Ina Centaur: btw quanta, other than dagny’s order of Rearden Metal, their relationship is not yet introduced
[19:55:41] Ina Centaur: hi grace!
[19:55:47] Grace McDunnough: /Hi
[19:56:18] Ina Centaur: /me pokes snow. have you finished your reading?
[19:56:56] Snow Woodget: Did. I was waiting for whoever’s showing at 9 though.
[19:57:43] Snow Woodget: Last night, a new crowd came at the second time, and the discussion got pretty chaotic when they joined in without much context.
[19:58:04] Grace McDunnough: Are we starting at 8 or 9A?
[19:58:57] Ina Centaur: either..
[20:00:13] Snow Woodget: Something really struck me at the start of the second chapter.
[20:00:50] Snow Woodget: I loved the vividness of the way Rand described the train, with the “smear of noise,” the sudden break above the flat cars, “contorted skyscrapers,” bridges hanging in the air and stopping half way…
[20:01:36] Ina Centaur: (yes)
[20:01:38] Snow Woodget: It actually got me pretty excited about what might be a kind of mundane scene, as it would normally be seen in a book, or even a film. Suddenly I was getting pretty excited by the train and the steel foundry… made me want to visit either in person to see ‘em with the new eye…
[20:02:09] Snow Woodget: And then the critic just backhanding all of that, and Hank beside for putting his name to it… I can’t think of a better way for setting me up and making me see just what it must be like to be Hank.
[20:03:00] Snow Woodget: It was really clever. At first I thought Rand was just enjoying writing that description… then I realized I’d kinda got roped in, had my outlook changed.
[20:03:04] Snow Woodget: /me shakefist - “She set me up!”
[20:03:24] Snow Woodget:
[20:03:46] Ina Centaur: yes, her scenery is never just random
[20:04:06] Ina Centaur: there’s a purpose to her every word… paraphrasing Lauren’s opening quote
[20:04:19] Snow Woodget: Then we look for that throughout the book…
[20:05:16] Snow Woodget: I’m never a fan of reading too deeply into scenery and seemingly superficial details in fiction. Per the discussion yesterday, I think very often people find things the author didn’t put there. I guess here we’re more attentive.
[20:06:27] Ina Centaur: yes, but Rand often integrates her ideas into both scenery and character… not just via dialogue
[20:07:35] Ina Centaur: well, so i guess we could go back to the idea of the chain … what manifestations of it do you see?
[20:09:36] Snow Woodget: Did you have something specific in mind yourself?
[20:10:14] Ina Centaur: it’s just an open topic. there are the two manifestations — physically as the chain he gives to Lillian, and metaphorically, the chain that binds them all together (aptly put by Lillian)
[20:10:56] Ina Centaur: welcome harman
[20:11:00] Snow Woodget: Well, or more to it - the chain that holds Hank back, I think. His sense that he’s the odd man out in that family, and that it means he’s defective or obligated to hold himself back. He never sees *them* as the problem.
[20:11:14] Ina Centaur: welcome tory!
[20:11:23] Ina Centaur: (wb, rather )
[20:11:53] Snow Woodget: His moment of greatest satisfaction, the point where he expresses a genuine smile, is when the one worker sees his own reaction, and seems to share the sense of import.
[20:12:13] Snow Woodget: And yet he doesn’t surround himself with people like that - surrounds himself with leeches instead.
[20:12:31] Ina Centaur: ah, interesting perspective of the chain..
[20:12:36] Ina Centaur: rather than binding…
[20:12:40] Ina Centaur: you’re saying it’s restrictive
[20:12:52] Snow Woodget: Yes.
[20:13:04] ToryLynn Writer: I’m still not done (sort of) but I’m going to listen
[20:13:09] ToryLynn Writer: if that’s alright
[20:13:14] Snow Woodget: Holding Hank back. Admittedly, the other characters weren’t interesting enough for me to care what holds them together.
[20:14:01] Ina Centaur: np
[20:14:15] Jordana McMahon: when Hank first thinks about the chain it is a thing of pride
[20:14:36] Jordana McMahon: when he gives it to his wirfe it is described as rough
[20:14:45] Ina Centaur: yes, his family is portrayed as trivial/fleeting… but, it’s interesting to note his reaction to them.
[20:14:45] Jordana McMahon: not of value
[20:15:12] Ina Centaur: the way he’s reluctant to tell his family of the major thing that’s happened today
[20:16:25] Snow Woodget: It’s as if he takes it for granted that he’s not entitled to pride and satisfaction once they start speaking.
[20:16:41] Ina Centaur: yes, jordana, there’s a difference between his wife (in his ideal) and his legal wife
[20:16:56] Ina Centaur: similarly, there’s a difference between his notion of a family and his RL family
[20:17:09] Ina Centaur: he can’t conceive of their intentions to be bad..
[20:17:19] Snow Woodget: His wife angered me from the first. I hate people who use sarcasm so freely, saying one thing and meaning another, or letting how they emote vary from the meaning of their words. It’s very tough to deal with them directly.
[20:17:43] Ina Centaur: but, he has to “rewarp” his logic in order to give their actions beneficial interpretations
[20:18:36] Harman Mayo: I’m not sure that he truly cares about there intentions
[20:18:42] Snow Woodget: It’s the tone of speech being so at odds with the words. I’ll admit those people throw me pretty easily too at times.
[20:18:49] Harman Mayo: his every move is a calculated one
[20:18:50] Snow Woodget: Why’s that, Harman?
[20:18:51] Ina Centaur: yes, snow, and it’s interesting that he does not care to identify the exact thing his family is doing to him…
[20:19:52] Ina Centaur: hank doesn’t believe that “petty” things such as publicity, and governmental agents can affect him
[20:19:52] Snow Woodget: I’ve not had personal relations with people that twisted, but in other discourse, people who are doing that are usually doing it to avoid having to actually state and defend ideas…
[20:20:40] Snow Woodget: Stating everything sarcastically, or lending that “ha ha only joking” tone to everything makes anyone who tries to respond to the underlying ideas come off as a bit of a bad sport, or inappropriately serious. I’m not sure why people so readily receive it that way.
[20:21:04] Harman Mayo: It’s almost like he needs the abuse - in order to maintain his personal drive
[20:21:25] Ina Centaur: i think lillian’s whole “air” of taking everything as a joke suits her character.
[20:21:35] Ina Centaur: (back then, “society girls”, i guess were expected to treat things lightly)
[20:22:06] Ina Centaur: hmm harman, why do you say that hank needs the “abuse” ?
[20:22:23] Harman Mayo: sure - image was everything - true substance was unimportant in a woman of society
[20:22:39] Harman Mayo: I think that he feeds on it
[20:22:59] Snow Woodget: Was there some point in the text where you saw that, Harman?
[20:23:04] Jordana McMahon: he doesn’t show his displeasure
[20:23:24] Jordana McMahon: he tries to placate
[20:23:30] Harman Mayo: many times
[20:23:42] Snow Woodget: I kinda saw the opposite. I saw it taking a big toll on him. Unless maybe you mean that the contrast of the work and home life drives him to spend more time at the foundry?
[20:23:49] Harman Mayo: he chose to “let; lillian have a victory
[20:24:10] Ina Centaur: well, he tries to placate because he can’t conceive their intentions as evil
[20:24:25] Harman Mayo: more an “I’ll show you” attitude
[20:24:25] Jordana McMahon: yes I didn’t understand that
[20:24:30] Ina Centaur: he’s re-interpreting their often insolent lines
[20:24:44] Harman Mayo: but is he?
[20:25:01] Harman Mayo: I think he fully realizes how badly they treat him
[20:25:20] Harman Mayo: but needs that isolation to sharpen his drive
[20:25:39] Harman Mayo: it does state that he was nevere lonely unless he was happy
[20:26:13] Jordana McMahon: because he would like to share his happiness
[20:26:20] Ravenleigha Jewell: does he just feel superior to them, so the ‘abuse’ doesn’t hurt?
[20:26:38] Harman Mayo: i don’t see it that way
[20:26:54] Harman Mayo: i think yhe pain is his motive to succeed
[20:27:17] Ina Centaur: well, harman…
[20:27:21] Ina Centaur: pain isn’t something one is born into
[20:27:24] Ina Centaur: it’s something one discovers
[20:27:39] Ina Centaur: (well, not something one’s born into… in typical cases, at least)
[20:27:43] Harman Mayo: i disagree
[20:27:53] Ina Centaur: when one “discovers”pain, one can either cry and let it take over… or one can decide to deal with it
[20:28:12] Harman Mayo: being ripped froma nice, safe womb into light and noise and cold is painful
[20:28:47] Ina Centaur: pain isn’t a constant state of life, though
[20:28:55] Ina Centaur: (again, not typically, at least… >.< )
[20:28:59] Harman Mayo: life is pain - but that doesn’t mean pain is bad
[20:29:05] Harman Mayo: it just IS
[20:29:19] Ina Centaur: harman, define pain
[20:30:04] Harman Mayo: physical, mental, or psychological - oh emotional as well?
[20:30:35] Ina Centaur: life isn’t about constant pain
[20:30:40] Harman Mayo: although the last 3 are really all one and the same - only there because we think and feel
[20:30:59] Harman Mayo: true - it isn’t constant pain
[20:31:02] Ina Centaur: in Rand’s universe, pain is an obstruction to get by. it’s not something that’s supposed to be a drive in and of itself
[20:31:09] Harman Mayo: but pain is essential to life
[20:31:15] Ina Centaur: it may be a drive partially… say, a temporary incentive to move away from its source
[20:31:24] Harman Mayo: in order to eat - something must die
[20:31:46] Harman Mayo: even if it’s “only” a plant
[20:31:50] Ina Centaur: yes, but, if you want to be technical… pain an death aren’t always associated
[20:32:05] Harman Mayo: and childbirth is defined as the ultimate pain
[20:32:07] Ina Centaur: and then… you wonder about the degree to which different living species “feel” pain
[20:32:44] Ina Centaur: yes, so pain is a part of life. not necessarily essential. there are always those who are labeled “natural birthmothers,” (or something like that) who actually have painless birth
[20:33:01] Ina Centaur: it’s often something that accompanies milestones in one’s life
[20:33:04] Harman Mayo: yes - but the excepyion, not the rule
[20:33:07] Ina Centaur: but then again, happiness is, as well
[20:33:19] Harman Mayo: there are also those who feel no pain when they are cut
[20:33:44] Harman Mayo: but those are rare cases - not the “norm”
[20:34:14] Ina Centaur: yes, pain is also a physical sensation, which can be operated on biologically. cut off a person’s nerves and CNS and such, and they wouldn’t be able to feel pain
[20:34:34] Sodovan Torok: Hi All
[20:34:39] Harman Mayo: but my view is pretty simple - i think all actions stem from only 2 motivations
[20:34:40] Xombie Snook: Howdy
[20:34:46] Ina Centaur: similarly, emotional pain can also be avoided by medical procedures as well
[20:34:53] Jordana McMahon: hi
[20:34:55] Ina Centaur: hi sodovan, xombie, competitive
[20:34:57] Harman Mayo: the avoidance of pain, or the gaining of pleasure
[20:35:05] Ina Centaur: welcome to Day 2 of our readathon/discussion on…
[20:35:12] Ina Centaur: Ayn Rand’s
[20:35:15] Ina Centaur: Atlas Shrugged
[20:35:17] Xombie Snook: thanks
[20:35:39] Ina Centaur: again, chat in this region is logged http://slchatr.com/group/sliterary/longhouse
[20:35:56] Ina Centaur: so.. you can catch up on discussions without spacetime being in the way
[20:37:26] Ina Centaur: hehe, so back to Harman’s tangent on Rearden being *driven* by pain