[19:27:20] Ina Centaur: hmm not sure if others’d arrive… this is probably too nerdy of a use of SL >.<
[19:27:24] Ina Centaur: so let’s start our discussion
[19:28:17] Ina Centaur: chapter 1: The Theme — what does it reveal to you guys so far? what do you expect to happen (if you haven’t read it before); what do you think the theme is?
[19:29:36] Snow Woodget: It’s this shifting malaise, and a sort of constant evasion of responsibility for decision, and a grasping for excuses, seems like…
[19:29:59] Ina Centaur: yes, the “blank out”
[19:30:16] Ina Centaur: but.. shifting malaise?
[19:30:59] Snow Woodget: Sure. You look at Eddie, who’s not an exceptional man, but who isn’t resigned and beaten yet. He knows something’s wrong, but he can’t point to what it is. It just manifests here and there, confusing and disorienting him.
[19:32:22] Snow Woodget: His uneasiness at the calendar, the oak tree that turned out to be rotten, confusion at James Taggart’s responses… he seems to be grasping without really formulating just what’s wrong.
[19:32:43] ToryLynn Writer: well.. the oak tree was an intrewsting point..
[19:32:59] Ina Centaur: oh, interesting perspective. the “blank out” is typically seen to be characteristic of the villains, rather than the semi-hero/normals like Eddie
[19:33:01] ToryLynn Writer: he sees this world that is becoming so technology centered.. and then the tree might represent, to him nature
[19:33:08] ToryLynn Writer: he is devastated by its death…
[19:33:10] Ina Centaur: but, yes, Eddie does have a bit of that evasion…
[19:33:50] Snow Woodget: I think it’s just that Eddie isn’t fully owned by it, yet doesn’t identify it that keeps him from being great too.
[19:34:10] Ina Centaur: yes, the oak tree. to me, it kinda summarizes eddie… his ultimate demise at least (ack can’t bring that up; spoiler >.<)
[19:34:24] ToryLynn Writer: demise!!
[19:34:25] ToryLynn Writer: /me laughs
[19:34:27] ToryLynn Writer: that’s alright..
[19:34:27] Ina Centaur: eddie’s epithet — great guy ruinable by a great betrayal
[19:34:56] ToryLynn Writer: he seems sort of the “middle man” the Everyman
[19:35:16] Ina Centaur: he’s devastated that this thing he views as great is really just hollow nothing
[19:35:17] Snow Woodget: Sure. I think he’s where a lot of people start out. Perhaps most?
[19:35:53] Snow Woodget: I’ve read other Rand that names the blank out. I don’t know if that’s quite the right term as manifested so far in the first chapter however though, Ina…
[19:36:45] Ina Centaur: hmm, what do you view the “blank out” as?
[19:36:54] Object: Touched.
[19:36:59] Snow Woodget: The one thing about these characters is that they’re so explicit in their self-deception and shared evasions. Maybe it’s just a literary device to more fully demonstrate how the characters work, but I think blanking out is just that - ceasing thought…
[19:37:46] ToryLynn Writer: Hello Jamey
[19:37:59] Snow Woodget: I mean, look at the different phases James Taggart went through - first trying to swat aside discussion with Eddie, then trying to make it seem as if their problems were typical of the industry as though that resolved it, then recoiling at any mention of someone better than him, and actively trying to talk down the greater men.
[19:38:01] Jamey Satyr: Hello
[19:38:30] Snow Woodget: I don’t think the blank is so sophisticated as any of that. It’s more the “Who is John Galt?” that seems to be signifying a blank, save in Kellogg’s seemingly sarcastic use of it.
[19:38:44] Ina Centaur: hi jamey
[19:38:55] Jamey Satyr: Hello, everyone.
[19:38:58] Snow Woodget: Forgive me if I ramble a bit!
[19:39:38] Jamey Satyr: I have to go ahead and go on record saying, despite a good friend telling me I ought to, sometime, that I have not, yet, read Atlas Shrugged.
[19:40:00] Ina Centaur: well, it’s interesting to note that people, in general (in RL, even!), tend to have a similar degree of evasion
[19:40:20] Ina Centaur: the evasion element could be both a theme… and possibly a bonus to characterization?
[19:40:24] ToryLynn Writer: Hello Sterling
[19:40:27] Snow Woodget: Jamey: There will be a flogging later! And then you’ll be made to carry a copy of AS up and down the stairs ten times!
[19:40:41] Ina Centaur: lol >.<
[19:40:55] ToryLynn Writer: ok.. brb… listening, but not here
[19:40:58] Ina Centaur: (there’s a reason why the title isn’t Atlas ShrugS ;-P )
[19:41:11] Jamey Satyr: I don’t have stairs, except the ones down into my garage or down from the porch. Will I be forced to build some?
[19:41:28] Ina Centaur: lol
[19:41:47] Ina Centaur: (jamey: i’ll be happy to rez stairs for you if you mean inworld )
[19:42:38] Ina Centaur: ok, so let’s get back to the evasion vs blank-out
[19:42:46] Jamey Satyr: Well, meant my RL environment. Especially as I’m fairly certain that making someone carry stuff after being flogged is against the ToS, now, even if they consent to it.
[19:42:52] Ina Centaur: what do you think ayn rand has “blank out” referring to, snow?
[19:43:42] Snow Woodget: That point where someone just stops thinking, reciding a patent phrase or simply not responding at all, rather than having to make a rational decision where one side or the other burdens them with loss or responsibility.
[19:44:15] Ina Centaur: well, taggart sort of does that… he doesn’t recite the same phrase per se… but the lines are similar
[19:44:16] Snow Woodget: The impact’s the same as what James was doing… my only observation was that I don’t think folks normally articulate it the way he does. Just fade into it.
[19:44:35] Ina Centaur: “it seems to me… that we ought to give the little people a chance” (variations of that)
[19:45:07] Ina Centaur: yes, i think in chapter 1, taggart was in a particularly agitated state
[19:45:12] Snow Woodget: Sure, or saying Wyatt was demanding “more than his fair share of transportation” or the like. It’s pointless, only sounds superficially meaningful.
[19:45:52] Ina Centaur: then again, i think Rand had his dialogue in that particular way to make clear who her villains are, perhaps?
[19:46:19] Jamey Satyr: There, I’ll sit next to Snow and Ina, since no one else seems to wish to.
[19:46:41] Ina Centaur: (hehe i just rezzed the chair there, jamey… didn’t expect so many people to come >.<)
[19:46:42] Snow Woodget: That was my original thinking - that it was a literary device meant to show what he might sort of unconsciously waddle in. But naw - I’m coming to agree with what you’ve said. Blanking could still well be an active state.
[19:47:13] Jamey Satyr: Heh.
[19:48:33] Ina Centaur: yes, i think… later on, we could analyze the heroes for their bit on “blanking out”
[19:49:17] Ina Centaur: i think everyone blanks out, but rand structures it so that the villains’ blanking out tends to be more salient
[19:49:27] Ina Centaur: anyway though… but back on chapter 1.
[19:49:44] Ina Centaur: oak tree, anyone? what do you think is the significance of the oak tree from Eddie’s youth?
[19:50:46] Snow Woodget: I think he looks elsewhere for strength, not to himself. Seeing that fail must have been disturbing.
[19:51:13] Ina Centaur: yes, why do you think he looks elsewhere, rather than in himself, though?
[19:51:41] Jordana McMahon: sorry I’m late
[19:51:44] Ina Centaur: there was the paragraph earlier, where he remembers that Dagny and he ponder what they’d do when they grow up
[19:51:56] Ina Centaur: Dagny was basically “whatever” … Eddie was like “whatever’s right.”
[19:52:13] Ina Centaur: hi jordana, we’re just getting started
[19:52:27] Snow Woodget: Sure, and he talks about wanting to do something great, but he couldn’t quite say what greatness really was… or why they should do that. He looks to that valuation without understanding what it actually means.
[19:52:54] Snow Woodget: Or perhaps it’s more where greatness actually comes from that’s missing, and which leads to not understanding those other things?
[19:53:59] Ina Centaur: yes, i think you have a point there. Dagny looks to the railroads when she answered him… she had a goal set from the very beginning
[19:54:13] Jordana McMahon: I thought it was interesting that after talking about the industructable oak that was destroyed he entered the indestructable Building the what was the name Towers
[19:54:35] Ina Centaur: oh, where does greatness come from, btw?
[19:55:04] Snow Woodget: That’s kinda interesting too… the reassurance the narrator voices that he feels on entering the permanent-seeming structure.
[19:55:05] Ina Centaur: oh yes, oak tree allusion to Taggart Towers
[19:55:28] Jordana McMahon: yes Taggert Towers
[19:56:03] Jordana McMahon: I thought that was an indication that the taggerts were going to fall but maybe they are not
[19:56:05] Snow Woodget: Not sure where greatness comes from. I don’t know what that means as a generic term. Great for what? You need purpose to give greatness context, I guess.
[19:56:06] Ina Centaur: yes, and you find that their typewriters are broken, competent employees are quitting … the tower is just hollow empty… similar to the oak tree
[19:56:29] Snow Woodget: innnnteresting
[19:57:12] Ina Centaur: yes, great is relative. what do you think ayn rand’s definition of “greatness” is?
[19:57:58] Ina Centaur: oh.. oops missed the line. actually, the Taggarts might fall… the world is sorta on the verge of collapse.
[19:58:37] Ina Centaur: eddie walks through the streets of chapter 1 wishing that he could hide/save the competent bus drivers (etc) from some danger he can’t identify
[19:59:12] Grace McDunnough: I guess to me the oak represents the great “assumption” that is, in everything we take for granted .. without struggle there is no greatness
[19:59:44] Snow Woodget: I’d guess Rand’s great man would be someone who’s guided by rational self-interest, independent, and motivated. Dunno.
[20:00:28] Snow Woodget: What do you think Rand’s definition of greatness would be, Ina?
[20:01:04] Snow Woodget: If it’s okay to direct a question like that - dunno if everything’s supposed to be an open question or such. Is there book group etiquette?
[20:01:29] Jamey Satyr: /me humms, “I always thought of a great man as someone who felt as one with himself, meaning had strength of self from within, from who he was, not what he or others did or thought of him. Someone who did what was right, not because others expected him to, just because it was the right thing to do.”
[20:01:40] Ina Centaur: it’s open topic on atlas shrugged chapter 1. no limits on what you can ask or bring up otherwise
[20:01:48] Ina Centaur: yes, i think i agree with your perspective, snow..
[20:02:14] Ina Centaur: but i’d add that creativity, the ability to create independently, may also be a key element
[20:02:24] Snow Woodget: But yeah - I think that independence is key, and Jamey mentions just a few examples of what that means.
[20:02:35] Snow Woodget: Ah, not just rational, but able!
[20:03:00] Jamey Satyr: Yes, and true ability comes from within. From being able to think for yourself.
[20:03:29] Ina Centaur: yes, the ability to determine from his/her own mind/judgment what exactly *right* is
[20:04:18] Jamey Satyr: Anyhow, now that we’ve beaten that for a bit, please, go back on to the discussion of the book. It’s making me more interested in reading it.
[20:05:00] Snow Woodget: I’m a bit curious about the calendar…
[20:05:16] Snow Woodget: What was the purpose for bringing that up? The weak pun on days being numbered didn’t seem to warrant it…
[20:05:25] Snow Woodget: Did I miss something more?
[20:05:43] Ina Centaur: yes, i think that’s ayn foreshadowing her (fantasy) US becoming totalitarian
[20:05:52] Ina Centaur: where the date is determined by the government
[20:06:15] Snow Woodget: So just that looming authority over something so basic as the date?
[20:06:17] Ina Centaur: i think that in communist nations, they actually put up calendars on public buildings… but, typically, in the US, you just see the time/temperature
[20:06:41] Ina Centaur: yup, i guess date also has cultural issues. not everyone subscribes to the same calendar o_O
[20:06:57] Ina Centaur: hehe, but i gues that’s probably a minor off-tangent point
[20:07:25] Snow Woodget: Hmm. It just seemd odd for it to be so prominent. The whole rest of the chapter seemed very precisely directed toward the theme.
[20:07:25] Ina Centaur: hi harman, cameron, jordana, grace
[20:08:01] Harman Mayo: ‘lo
[20:08:22] Jordana McMahon: whatdd you think was the theme of the first chapter”
[20:08:32] Ina Centaur: hehe
[20:08:32] Cameron Switchblade: g’day
[20:08:52] Ina Centaur: flip theme: the end is coming!!:-O
[20:08:56] StopAllAnimations: Stopping 3 animations
[20:08:56] StopAllAnimations: Done
[20:09:26] Cameron Switchblade: oh nice, thanks
[20:10:05] Jordana McMahon: I don’t know anything about the book but what does “Who is John Galt” mean
[20:10:08] Snow Woodget: We kinda started a little early. Ina asked the question about the theme once back then… mebbe let someone else answer this time.
[20:10:53] Ina Centaur: yup.. and if you’re up for catching up on convos… http://slchatr.com/group/sliterary/longhouse … attempts to “catch” all discussion that happens in this building and a bit of the boardwalk outside
[20:11:07] Ina Centaur: so that.. perhaps to bridge discussions, break timezone gaps and all
[20:11:54] Ina Centaur: “who is john galt” is typically labeled as a phrase “epitomizing” the ubiquitous despair in rand’s dystopia
[20:11:55] Snow Woodget: /me waves through the transcript - “Hi, mom!”
[20:12:20] Cameron Switchblade: regarding theme, I’d say it’sthat individual effort, motivated by seemingly-selfish behaviours, is what drives the world forward
[20:12:50] Snow Woodget: I kind of read it as a resignation where people sign off and stop thinking, or something said as sort of a joke by people who know, and who revel in being detached from that ugliness.
[20:13:13] Ina Centaur: cameron, true to an extent… but i think the novel is actually more about how the world destroys itself…
[20:13:31] Cameron Switchblade: you read it as dystopian?
[20:13:37] Ina Centaur: and chapter 1’s setting looks more like ubiquitous dystopia >.<
[20:13:55] Ina Centaur: yes, galt’s gulch aside
[20:14:25] Cameron Switchblade: well there does seem to be a movement towards stasis and entropy unless someone innovates
[20:14:37] Ina Centaur: yup
[20:15:10] Ina Centaur: yes, the resignation bit is definitely significant
[20:15:12] Snow Woodget: Stasis and entropy?
[20:15:25] Ina Centaur: both heroes and villains can be accused of “resignation”
[20:15:33] Ina Centaur: villains “blank out” (or go on evasive mode)
[20:15:37] Ina Centaur: heroes resign from the world…
[20:15:44] Ina Centaur: hmm but that’s beyond chapter 1 again…
[20:15:48] Jordana McMahon: the characters of Dagny and her brother are interesting contrasts
[20:15:54] Jordana McMahon: who is the hero
[20:16:00] Ina Centaur: oh…
[20:16:01] Jordana McMahon: in this chapter
[20:16:07] Ina Centaur: let’s see… take a guess on who hero/villains are, jordana
[20:16:19] Jordana McMahon: ok and why
[20:16:26] Snow Woodget: Resign from the world?
[20:16:35] ToryLynn Writer: I think I focused the most on Dagny because of the interest in women’s issues in the Rand World
[20:16:55] Cameron Switchblade: I have to say, when I first read the book, 20 years ago, it took me about three or four goes to get through the first chapter
[20:16:59] Jordana McMahon: James is interested in being loyal Dagny is interested in being successful
[20:17:17] Cameron Switchblade: whenever I give the book to friends, which happens A LOT, I warn them to persist through the first chapter
[20:17:28] Ina Centaur: yes, tory, there was the bit where it’s mentioned Dagny does all that, despite the fact that she’s a woman
[20:17:41] Grace McDunnough: … indeed, a lovely contradiction
[20:17:45] Ina Centaur: (snow, “resign from the world” … not in suicide… but you know… quit the real world)
[20:18:31] Snow Woodget: Dunno I’d call it resigning from the world, so much as opting out of artificial barriers built by noodleheads.
[20:18:39] Grace McDunnough: LOL well said
[20:19:11] Ina Centaur: ah, but, jordana… james’ loyalty might lead to the destruction of his company
[20:19:31] Jordana McMahon: absolutely he is a villain in the business world
[20:19:42] Jordana McMahon: but in another situation maybe not
[20:19:46] Snow Woodget: James’ loyalty?
[20:19:50] Ina Centaur: and james does mention the socioeconomical aspect… without Taggart Transcontinental, how will the people travel? (this was before airplanes were ubiquitous i guess)
[20:19:50] Cameron Switchblade: getting back to the oak tree, it seems like a pretty straight-forward analogy for american society - the perception of eternal strength and solidity but beneath it, an empty, rotting husk
[20:19:57] Snow Woodget: Oh, to the first steel company, yeah.
[20:20:18] Jordana McMahon: Tes his friend
[20:20:21] Jordana McMahon: yes
[20:20:38] Jordana McMahon: that is not good business policy
[20:20:38] Ina Centaur: (well, snow, what do you define the “world” as then…)