[20:21:23] Snow Woodget: The world I’d say is what’s real. That which doesn’t go away when you stop thinking about it. I don’t think the heroes ever opt out of -that-.
[20:21:51] Snow Woodget: I’d say maybe they opt out of society.
[20:21:51] Jordana McMahon: how do you know what doesn’t go away when you stop thinking about it
[20:22:07] Snow Woodget: I haven’t thought about it, Jordana.
[20:22:17] Harman Mayo: circular logic
[20:22:18] Ina Centaur: ah, then we have a difference in definitions. the world i referred to… meant the one where simple luxuries like self-serv ice cream and soda is available quickly and cheaply
[20:22:56] Ina Centaur: world = “the world that exists (due to history, industrial revolution, etc)”
[20:23:06] Cameron Switchblade: we could go down a metaphysics rabbit hole here, delve into the nature of consciousness, but Rand would have despised that kind of talk methinks
[20:23:16] Harman Mayo: i agree
[20:23:32] Harman Mayo: she was very focused on the conciousness of self
[20:23:47] Jordana McMahon: well we can enjoy te book without agreeing with her
[20:23:59] Harman Mayo: i don’t agree with her
[20:24:07] Harman Mayo: but still enjoy the book
[20:24:32] Ina Centaur: hehe, i think rand would argue otherwise on enjoying the book w/o agreeing with her) ;-P
[20:24:51] Harman Mayo: she might have
[20:25:08] Ina Centaur: but anyway, scrolling up to cameron’s point about the oak tree representing american society…
[20:25:36] Ina Centaur: cameron, do you believe that atlas shrugged’s “wordl” is realistic to the modern world right now?
[20:25:42] Snow Woodget: There’s not much to handle there, though. The notion that the world goes away if I stop thinking about it is kinda arbitrary, not suggested by evidence. Don’t have to entertain an arbitrary idea not proceeding from observation or rational analysis to dismiss it, or I’d be spending my whole day trying to disprove invisible unicorns and my household appliances in a conspiracy against me.
[20:26:38] Cameron Switchblade: @ina if by “realistic” you are asking do I think her depiction of American society as perilously close to collapsing in on itself, then yes
[20:26:40] Snow Woodget: (Not that they aren’t - should see what my washer can do to a new pair of socks!) >:(
[20:26:41] Harman Mayo: you know about the appliance conspiracy?
[20:27:06] Cameron Switchblade: @snow when you are in a state of deep sleep or unconsciousness, does the world continue to exist for you?
[20:27:06] Ina Centaur: (on metaphysics: rand definitely does not believe in any of the modern “tripe”… for her, the world exists whether or not you *want* it to or not)
[20:27:12] Harman Mayo: sure - we have 6 of the 7 signs of an empire in decay
[20:27:25] Jamey Satyr: To all practical purposes, regardless if you believe in Schrodengers Cat or not, if you open the door, most of the time, what’s beyond it will be the same as it was when you closed it.
[20:27:27] Ina Centaur: (and then later, you’d find that her villains sorta “die” from evading the fact that reality exists independent of their acceptance of it)
[20:27:36] Jamey Satyr: Not taking into account random dogs digging up the lawn.
[20:27:47] Snow Woodget: /me shakefist! Dogs!
[20:27:57] Ina Centaur: (”die” … incorporating general cases where the villains have psychological breakdowns, etc)
[20:28:24] Cameron Switchblade: The trunk was only an empty shell; its heart had rotted away long ago; there was nothing inside?just a thin gray dust that was being dispersed by the whim of the faintest wind.
[20:28:25] Jordana McMahon: modern tripe?
[20:28:46] Ina Centaur: @cameron - do you think our current society’s about to collapse?
[20:29:25] Cameron Switchblade: @Ina Western society? I think it is extremely close to collapsing in itself.
[20:29:36] Cameron Switchblade: in on itself
[20:30:29] Ina Centaur: @jamey, schrodinger’s cat doesn’t exactly apply. it is just an “interpretation” to the results of quantum mechanics. there are other equally valid interpretations that do not put reality in this superposition of uncertainty.
[20:30:53] Jamey Satyr: It was a simple shorthand to cut beyond the ‘invisible unicorns’ stuff.
[20:31:25] Ina Centaur: @Cameron - what do you think the milestones are for the great implosion? ;-P
[20:31:40] ToryLynn Writer: re:society’s collapse: They say that societies go through cycles.. and a lot of historians and socialogists are talking about how this society, our current world, is on the bring of collapse merely because we are nearing the end of a cycle
[20:32:03] Jamey Satyr: We don’t, after all, wish to fill the log with the long-hand discussions on Quantum Physics when we’re supposed to be discussing a book and the possible ramifications of images and scenes portrayed within it.
[20:32:07] Ina Centaur: @tory… ww3? o_O
[20:32:36] ToryLynn Writer: maybe not ww3, but the change in how the system works…
[20:33:42] ToryLynn Writer: we had the dark ages, renaissance and enlightenment, the technology age… we are working towards a new society..
[20:33:48] ToryLynn Writer: even here.. maybe a global society
[20:33:57] Harman Mayo: bead and circuses
[20:34:03] Cameron Switchblade: @Ina we are, according to people like Chomsky, closer now to MAD than ever before in human history. The majority of climate scientists believe we have done enourmous damage to the environment. The rich countries are creating thin excuses to invade poor countries, kill their citizens, take their resources, ignoring the comlpaints of other global citizens.
[20:34:10] Harman Mayo: bread rather
[20:34:51] Cameron Switchblade: corporations, run by a small handful of wealthy white men, are running amok.
[20:35:04] Cameron Switchblade: with the USA as their weapon
[20:35:13] Cameron Switchblade: yeah, I’d say we’re living in very interesting times
[20:35:20] Harman Mayo: amok? how so?
[20:35:42] Harman Mayo: and how does that relate to Atlas Shrugged?
[20:36:22] Ina Centaur: @tory.. it’d be interesting if ww occurs and the internet somehow still stays up. i guess SL (being the only 3d world software with 8 milliion users) would be the new world
[20:36:23] Cameron Switchblade: @harman amok as in destroying countries, killing millions of innocent civilians, destroying the environment, taking from the poor… this was an answer to a question about the meaning of Rand’s “oak tree” analogy in Chapter one
[20:36:26] Ina Centaur: (not an ad for LL >.< )
[20:36:52] Cameron Switchblade: a society that appears stong and stable but is really rotten to the core
[20:37:12] Ina Centaur: @cameron: people often cry that armageddon is nearing… so curious, what are people like Chomsky doing other than being doomsayer?
[20:37:12] Harman Mayo: but your claim was it was corproations
[20:37:27] Harman Mayo: i have yet to see a corproation invade a country
[20:37:40] Grace McDunnough: He’s evading
[20:37:46] Cameron Switchblade: @Ina chomsky is raising awareness, motivating people to mobilize
[20:37:54] Ina Centaur: lol
[20:37:55] Cameron Switchblade: @Harman hahahahaha
[20:38:08] Ina Centaur: the USA = corporation in disguise ;-P
[20:38:19] Ina Centaur: >.<
[20:38:21] Cameron Switchblade: follow the money Harman
[20:38:31] Ina Centaur: lol
[20:38:35] Cameron Switchblade: who is profiting from the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan?
[20:38:57] Cameron Switchblade: anyway, back to Rand
[20:39:01] Harman Mayo: profit/
[20:39:07] Cameron Switchblade: and the virtue of selfishness
[20:39:12] Snow Woodget: Think we’ve kinda wandered pretty afar of the book, and I’ve learned political discussions with strangers tend not to resolve much. Is the group likely starting again early tomorrow?
[20:39:29] Cameron Switchblade: sorry folks, I’m happy to get off the subject
[20:39:45] Harman Mayo: I agree snow
[20:39:47] Ina Centaur: @snow: hoping to do a chapter a night for the 30 days of august…
[20:40:06] Harman Mayo: the book is pretty straightforwasrd in the first chapter
[20:40:27] Harman Mayo: a general breakdown of an industrial society
[20:40:27] Jordana McMahon: what do you think of Rands writing ability
[20:40:37] Harman Mayo: it needn’t be the US
[20:40:47] Harman Mayo: could have been set anywhere
[20:41:02] Ina Centaur: rand is a great writer who’s basically written the equivalent of the bible… give it another 2000 years, and it’d be about as popular
[20:41:08] Harman Mayo: Rand just went with a location she knew
[20:41:19] Ina Centaur: (statistically, Atlas Shrugged is #2 bestseller only to the bible)
[20:41:35] Jordana McMahon: I think it is good writing but the critics don’t agree
[20:41:43] Jordana McMahon: they say melodraatic
[20:41:55] Harman Mayo: It is
[20:41:58] Jordana McMahon: melodramatic
[20:42:02] Ina Centaur: harman, breakdown isn’t exactly explicit in the first chapter
[20:42:03] Snow Woodget: I don’t know, Harman. The key thing is that it’s a wealthy once-independent society in decline. You could pick some other locations that might suit it, but likely more never rose enough to be able to fall as depicted in the book.
[20:42:09] Harman Mayo: but i think she exagerated to make her point
[20:42:10] Ina Centaur: you see decay, but you don’t see buildings collapsing just yet
[20:42:34] Cameron Switchblade: the buildings are another analogy
[20:42:39] Snow Woodget: I’m not even sure she exaggerates, so much as has characters state their positions and motives explicitly.
[20:42:42] Ina Centaur: … or the lights of NY blinking out (incidentally, back when that happened last year or so, i almost went on paranoia mode >.<)
[20:43:13] Snow Woodget: It would be a less effective book if you couldn’t see into how each character works quite as vividly.
[20:43:26] Harman Mayo: sue - and oil as blood is yet another analogy
[20:43:52] Grace McDunnough: In the context of what we know of Ayn .. after all her work seems inflated in the context of her beliefs
[20:44:18] Jamey Satyr: At this time, Oil is the lifeblood of our society. Without it, everything screeches to a halt.
[20:44:24] Harman Mayo: her philosophy is an integral part of her writing
[20:44:25] Ina Centaur: yes, some argue that her fiction is made impure by her tendency to turn her characters into arguments
[20:44:36] Ina Centaur: lol
[20:44:42] Snow Woodget: Hee. Impure!
[20:44:56] Grace McDunnough: in that case, we call it fact, not fiction
[20:45:00] Ina Centaur: yes, i agree. the philosophy is what makes her fiction immortal
[20:45:16] Harman Mayo: nods at Ina
[20:46:05] Grace McDunnough: Has everyone read the book?
[20:46:15] Jordana McMahon: only the first chapter
[20:46:17] Jamey Satyr: I have not.
[20:46:22] Grace McDunnough: Oh, ok ..
[20:46:23] Cameron Switchblade: many times
[20:46:45] Jamey Satyr: Which is a good part of why I’m mostly silent. That and I’m eating a pizza, IRL.
[20:47:14] Grace McDunnough: We should be cautious so as not to become spoilers … *pokes Ina*
[20:47:35] Snow Woodget: Snape kills James Taggart!
[20:47:36] Ina Centaur: oh many times
[20:47:41] Damian Stonewall: I’m reading the first chapter now.
[20:47:42] Ina Centaur: reread the first chapter just a few hours ago
[20:47:47] Jamey Satyr: Knowing where a story ends does not always maar enjoyment of reading/watching/experiencing it.
[20:47:59] Snow Woodget: And Darth Vader is Dagny’s father.
[20:48:09] Ina Centaur: yeup we’re limited to chapter 1 only, today, ok? ;-P
[20:48:18] Jordana McMahon: i liked the concept of discussing a book chapter by chapter
[20:48:19] Damian Stonewall: I’m on the railroad tracks, asking about the signal.
[20:48:20] Ina Centaur: oh right and luke is dagny’s long lost twin brother
[20:48:25] Ina Centaur: and james was adopted actually
[20:48:26] Ina Centaur: o_O
[20:48:32] Ina Centaur: haha jk jk jk >.<
[20:48:49] Jordana McMahon: I wanted to continue to the second chapter but resisted
[20:48:50] Grace McDunnough: And we have not mentioned Halley’s music
[20:49:06] Jordana McMahon: Oh yeah is there really a Haley
[20:49:12] Ina Centaur: oh yes, which RL composer do you guys think Halley was based on?
[20:49:43] Jordana McMahon: someone who doesn’t have a fifth symphony
[20:49:56] Snow Woodget: I don’t know. For some reason I couldn’t stop whistling Beethoven’s Ode to Joy around that point.
[20:50:14] Harman Mayo: Beethoven came to mind for me as well
[20:50:17] Ina Centaur: yes beethoven’s a suspect for Halley’s RL counterpart
[20:50:20] Cameron Switchblade: I always pegged him as Wagner
[20:50:21] Ina Centaur: rachmaninoff and liszt, perhaps too
[20:50:32] Harman Mayo: but I prefer to think of him as Nat King Cole
[20:50:45] Harman Mayo: his tunes are much more whistlable
[20:50:48] Ina Centaur: lol nat king cole and concertos? ;-P
[20:51:10] Jordana McMahon: was it concertos i forgot
[20:51:21] Jordana McMahon: or is it concerti
[20:52:00] Ina Centaur: ah concerti, to be precise
[20:52:15] Ina Centaur: latin conjugations…
[20:52:21] Ina Centaur: declensions. oops
[20:52:28] Jordana McMahon: ty
[20:52:54] Snow Woodget: It was fun, though, to have Dangy so drawn by that music, and then to have James telling her she’d never felt a thing. Not like normal people.
[20:52:57] Ina Centaur: in Fountainhead, Rand mentions Rachmaninof’s Piano Concerto #3
[20:53:10] Ina Centaur: i imagine Halley, for her, might be Rach
[20:53:13] Cameron Switchblade: ah the Rach 3!
[20:53:18] Harman Mayo: but rand refers to them improperly as concertos
[20:53:45] Ina Centaur: i think both usage are “allowed.”
[20:53:53] Ina Centaur: http://www.google.com/search?q=define: concertos
[20:54:01] Ina Centaur: ;-P the big W actually has it with a -s
[20:54:17] Harman Mayo: hehehe - i’m a poet, so i take even greater liberties in my own work
[20:54:37] Jamey Satyr: Just as an asside, but relation to this discussion, I have to say I have always loved media’s ability to mean so many different things to so many different people, often regardless, or despite, a author’s intent for something to _have_ meaning. Media is often a subjective experience, no matter how many people are enjoying it at the same time.
[20:55:20] Ina Centaur: yes, Atlas Shrugged is similar to the bible in that different people read it at different times in their lives and it means different things
[20:55:35] Grace McDunnough: I’m finding that true this time
[20:55:37] Harman Mayo: sure - there are songs that the authors swear have no hidden meaning - and yet are analyzed incessantly in classes and the media
[20:57:17] Harman Mayo: and I fully agree with Ina - what Atls Shrugged “means” changes depending upon the perspective of the reader
[20:57:59] Jordana McMahon: is that a bad thing?
[20:58:07] Harman Mayo: not at all
[20:58:22] Harman Mayo: that’s the beauty of the book
[20:58:31] Jordana McMahon: I would agree
[20:58:32] Jamey Satyr: I’m reminded of a friend(no, I won’t name drop) who took a class in apreciating fiction. He was quite hopeful that it would strengthen his ability to write meaningful books. The class started out alright, with introductions and then got underway with the teacher bringing out a book and who then started talking about what it meant, and the hidden philosophical directions the author was going in. He interrupted saying, “That’s not what it means!”, and the teacher said to him, “Well, I’ve been studying writing for most of my carreer, how would you know what it means?!”, to which he replied, “Because _I_ wrote the book.”, then he left the class and dropped it.
[20:58:47] Harman Mayo: everyone can relate to it on some level
[20:59:08] Harman Mayo: regardless of social/economic/political status
[20:59:48] Snow Woodget: Sometimes I think it’s a benefit to authors whose works are most-widely read and dissected that it happens after they die.
[21:00:26] Ina Centaur: @jamey… lol… typically i’d imagine authors smile or smirk when they find a reader interprets their piece completely differently. but, yes, i think your friend sounds like how Ayn might have reacted if you drop into Feminism 101 and find that her books are on the required reading list ;-P
[21:00:48] Jamey Satyr: Oh, I don’t know, I think sometimes it can bring a chuckle to find out someone’s saying we meant something else, and to sometimes deflate the ’stuffed shirts’ who think they can tell someone what a work of art _means_.
[21:00:51] Ina Centaur: *you=she ;-P
[21:00:54] Cameron Switchblade: there is also the position that authors are not really the best people to judge what they wrote or what it means. they are just the vehicle.
[21:01:38] Snow Woodget: I gotta timeout. Was nice meeting many of ya, look forward to tomorrow
[21:01:39] Jordana McMahon: but she is not donw the line on everything there are many feminist ideas in the first chapter
[21:01:47] Jamey Satyr: Goodnight, Snow.
[21:02:02] Grace McDunnough: Good night Snow, very .. nice to meet you
[21:02:11] Ina Centaur: nite snow.
[21:02:12] Jordana McMahon: well maybe not many but some
[21:02:16] Grace McDunnough: Snow melts quickly
[21:02:49] Jamey Satyr: Still, regardless of thinking of the writer as ‘meerely the vehicle’, something often has to have meaning to a writer, for him or her to write it in the first place.
[21:03:06] Ina Centaur: hmmm… should probably turn the thermostat down o_O
[21:03:51] Grace McDunnough: Ina, seriously a chapter a day ..every day .. here, same time?
[21:04:03] Ina Centaur: @jordana: i think Rand was actually asked if she was a feminist, and she said no…
[21:04:17] Grace McDunnough: She most definitely said no
[21:04:36] Ina Centaur: i guess “confining” herself to being a feminist would degrade objectivism.
[21:04:46] ToryLynn Writer: Rand can’t be a feminist..her women depend too much on men completing them
[21:04:48] Jordana McMahon: I can see that but Dagny seems to be the intellectual equal of anyone in the first chapter
[21:04:49] Harman Mayo: yes - she never defined herself as a feminist
[21:05:19] Jordana McMahon: and professionally too
[21:05:21] Damian Stonewall: I’d say Dagny’s the superior of anyone in the chapter, at least in terms of effectiveness — though this Kellogg seems to have her number.
[21:05:59] Ina Centaur: @grace, yup a chapter a day… discussions can go on all day here… the http://slchatr.com/group/sliterary/longhouse attempts to save chats to bridge conversations separated across spacetime ;-P
[21:06:07] Jamey Satyr: Too many rabid feminists out there. Gives ‘feminism’ a bad name.
[21:06:17] Jamey Satyr: Equal but different.
[21:06:32] Harman Mayo: Yes, Dagny is the only truly strong character we meet in the first chapter
[21:06:39] Cameron Switchblade: @Damian what about the anonymous brakeman humming the Halley?
[21:07:23] Harman Mayo: foreshadowing
[21:07:25] Damian Stonewall: He doesn’t seem to derive any pleasure from thwarting her.
[21:07:36] Ina Centaur: @tory… independence is the key to entering Galt’s Gulch though.. her women aren’t actually *that* dependent
[21:07:51] Ina Centaur: (in theory, if dagny never finds galt… she would have self-persisted… albeit in a less happy existence)
[21:08:39] Jordana McMahon: Is Ina on a dread mill
[21:08:45] Grace McDunnough: LOL we lost her
[21:12:04] Grace McDunnough: are we being abducted, or are we one for the session?
[21:12:28] Grace McDunnough: Welcome back, Ina
[21:12:30] Jordana McMahon: nice landing
[21:13:08] Jamey Satyr: Heh.
[21:13:13] Ina Centaur: lol ty >.<
[21:13:15] Jordana McMahon: wow
[21:13:18] Jamey Satyr: Probably just a sim hiccup, or something.
[21:13:24] Ina Centaur: lost the wireless
[21:13:30] Jamey Satyr: We who didn’t DC are probably the lucky ones.
[21:13:31] Ina Centaur: oh did the sim crash?
[21:13:46] Harman Mayo: nope
[21:13:48] Grace McDunnough: no, it’s still here
[21:13:58] Ina Centaur: yup. just my wireless then..
[21:14:23] Jamey Satyr: Well, you wern’t the only one to suddenly drop, is all I’m saying.
[21:14:30] Jordana McMahon: do you know if many people came during the day to discuss
[21:15:13] Jordana McMahon: its after 12 my time so kinda sleepy
[21:15:44] Ina Centaur: hehe
[21:15:52] Grace McDunnough: This is Ina’s testament to “without great suffrering, there is no greatness”
[21:16:01] Jordana McMahon: oh I see
[21:16:08] Ina Centaur: ???
[21:16:10] Ina Centaur: my testament?
[21:16:21] Grace McDunnough: It’s after 1AM for me, so I may retire
[21:16:49] Jordana McMahon: me too but I look forward to the next chapter
[21:16:54] Jordana McMahon: good nite all
[21:17:00] Grace McDunnough: Good night
[21:17:01] Ina Centaur: yup.
[21:17:04] Ina Centaur: nite jordana
[21:17:06] Jamey Satyr: Goodnight.
[21:17:46] Ina Centaur: hmm i guess this concludes the day
[21:17:48] Ina Centaur: ’s discussion
[21:18:02] Grace McDunnough: Thank you, Ina. This is a fine exercise
[21:18:15] Ina Centaur: hehe nite, grace
[21:18:34] Ina Centaur: oh wb tory!
[21:18:36] Jamey Satyr: It was nice of you to invite me, even though I haven’t read the book. I ought to be more involved in the SL writer’s community.
[21:18:46] Ina Centaur: oh jamey, do catch up for tomorrow!
[21:18:55] Grace McDunnough: Welcome back Tory, and good night
[21:19:03] Ina Centaur: chapter 1 is actually not that long. lots of mysteries/subplots that it initiates too ;-P